Hannah Dingley's appointment by Forest Green Rovers has been applauded by Ellen White and Demi Stokes, with the England greats hopeful it leads to further chances for female coaches.

The League Two club promoted Dingley from her role as academy boss to caretaker head coach earlier this month, following Duncan Ferguson's dismissal.

In taking the reins at The New Lawn, Dingley has become the first woman to lead a men's senior team in English football's top four divisions.

Speaking at the launch of Pixel FC, a collective of dedicated women's football creators helping to close the visibility gap within women's football, both White and Stokes hailed the decision to appoint her.

"I think it's really exciting," White said. "It's something that everyone's been speaking about before, but I'm really excited to see a female in the men's game being a manager.

"It's really inspiring and hopefully, she does amazingly. I'm really excited to see, hopefully, more opportunities now available for women in the men's game."

White and Stokes, both members of England's Euro 2022-winning squad, outlined their hopes that Dingley's appointment will normalise pathways for women in the men's game.

"I think it's just all about visibility and [being] given an opportunity, I think that's the main thing," White added. 

"There are so many opportunities in sport for women now and hopefully, we can continue to break down barriers.

"For it not to be something that's alien or something that's very minimal [would be great]. I think it should be something that's seen and heard and visible, and that's what I'm excited to see in the future."

Stokes echoed her former team-mate's sentiments, adding: "I love it. I think it's fantastic. I think that's what you want. It should be the norm. It shouldn't be, 'oh, a female has taken over a men's side'.

"It should just be, 'this is the new manager and she is a female'. I think, male or female, as long as you're good enough for the job, then it doesn't matter who you are."

Dingley took charge of her first game on July 5, a 1-1 friendly draw with Melksham Town, and could still be in charge for Rovers' League Two opener against Salford City next month.

Ellen White will be sad to see several talented Spain players miss the Women's World Cup over a dispute with the Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) and head coach Jorge Vilda. 

Last September, 15 Spain players pledged to resign from the national team unless Vilda was dismissed, claiming his tenure was having a negative impact on their "emotional state".

The RFEF stood by Vilda, who has coached La Roja since 2015 but has failed to take the side beyond the last eight of three major tournaments, and just three of the players involved in the dispute have made the trip to Australia and New Zealand.

Barcelona duo Mariona Caldentey and Aitana Bonmati – as well as Manchester United's Ona Batlle – have been recalled by Vilda, but 12 others remain frozen out.

Speaking at the launch of Pixel FC, a collective of dedicated women's football creators helping to close the visibility gap within women's football, White lamented their absence and said players' conditions need to be discussed.

"I think it's important to have those conversations," England's record goalscorer said. "I can't say what side [I would be on] because I'm not 100 per cent sure on everything, but I think it's really important.

"To be honest, it's really sad that we haven't got some of the best players in the world playing for their nation because of a number of different reasons. 

"I think that's really sad. In the World Cup, you should see the best players on show, so I feel really disappointed and sad for them. 

"I'm hoping that as time goes on and the conversations are had, those grievances are heard and they are able to continue to play for their country in the manner in which they want to."

France were also impacted by a player revolt earlier this year, with the withdrawal of captain Wendie Renard influential in Les Bleues' decision to part company with coach Corrine Diacre.

Former Saudi Arabia boss Herve Renard has since taken over and recalled the Lyon defender, and White hopes that move has had the desired effect on France's squad.

"Well, obviously, they've now brought in the new manager, so I'm hoping that's galvanised the squad and brought more excitement," she said. 

"These conversations need to happen for change to happen, and I'm hoping that they keep pushing for the change that they want.

"But the new manager has come in, and the players that originally said they wouldn't join the squad have now rejoined the squad, so I'm hoping it's moving in the right direction.

"I can't speak for the players, but I'm hoping that they feel comfortable enough to play for their nation and the conversations are really important to have."

Ellen White has hailed Sarina Wiegman as “a proven winner” and tipped the England manager to guide the country to World Cup glory this summer in Australia and New Zealand.

White – the Lionesses’ all-time leading goalscorer – talked up Wiegman’s impact and admitted she is “fascinated” by her former boss as England’s opening group game of the tournament against Haiti rapidly approaches.

And after winning last year’s European Championship, Wiegman is looking to make it consecutive wins in major tournaments this summer.

“It would be unheard of wouldn’t it? (winning the World Cup),” White said.

“She (Wiegman) won the Euros in 2017 with the Netherlands, she got to the final in 2019, she won the Euros with England and what if she went on to win the World Cup?

“It would just be insane. She’s a proven winner. I’m very proud to have her as our manager and she brings a level of calmness and understanding, a philosophy everyone can get on board with and I think the whole nation was gripped by her as well (last summer).

“I am fascinated by her and we are really excited with what this group can do and I think they can go all the way.”

White, 34, noted Wiegman’s character as one of the main reasons behind her success since taking over in September 2021.

The players have bought into her ideas on the pitch, and White added: “I think her communication (is her best attribute). She’s very honest, she communicates what she wants, she speaks to each individual and treats everyone as a person and not just a footballer.

“She wants to know about your family and has that personal kind of empathy as well. She also has a philosophy that everyone can get onboard with and understand, it’s not too complicated and then she’s really meticulous in her game plan and tactics.

“She’s something we’ve needed for a number of years and I’m really excited for her.”

Both White and Manchester City defender Demi Stokes were speaking at the launch of Pixel FC, a collective of dedicated women’s football creators helping to close the visibility gap within women’s football.

And Stokes believes England’s previous success in major competitions will give them an advantage over other nations Down Under.

She said: “If you look at the team they have bags of talent. We’ve shown in past tournaments that we have the capability, we know what it takes to win a tournament and be at a tournament, so I think the girls will be fine.”

England's Euro 2022-winning striker Ellen White has revealed she is expecting her first child.

White retired from football on a high note in August after featuring for the first England women's team to lift a major trophy during this year's home European Championships.

White scored 52 goals in 113 international caps, a record for a Lionesses player and a tally only bettered by Wayne Rooney and Harry Kane (both 53) across England's men's and women's teams.

On Wednesday, the former Manchester City striker posted an image of herself and husband Callum Convery on Twitter alongside the caption "Mum and Dad", revealing their child is due next April.

Sarina Wiegman has declared it is time for England to get 'back to business' after naming her first Lionesses squad since steering the team to victory at the European Championships.

England tackle Austria and Luxembourg as the European champions look to seal qualification for next year's World Cup, with further glory targeted after clinching a maiden honour last month.

The Lionesses are still riding the high from the success against Germany at Wembley, with focus on the women's game increasing significantly, but, while that triumph is fresh in the memory, Wiegman has called upon the squad to focus.

"It only feels like yesterday since we were celebrating at Wembley, but we have to get straight back to business," she said in a press conference.

"We have a big target in front of us this month to book our place at the World Cup, and we have to set aside our amazing memories of this summer for the moment."

Wiegman will be without two experienced figures in the squad, with record-goalscorer Ellen White and Jill Scott, the second-most capped player in Lionesses' history, both announcing their retirements this week 

"It is hard to describe their impact in words. They have been with the team for such a long time, impacting the game with the national team and club teams in England so much," Wiegman added.

"I've only worked with them for a year, I'm disappointed it is not longer, but I understand and respect their decision. We are so proud of them and thankful for what they've brought to the game. I hope they stay in football in another role."

Chloe Kelly, scorer of England's winning goal in the final, and Fran Kirby have both been omitted from the squad through injury, while Hannah Hampton is out amid "personal issues" - tallying together for five changes from the Euro 2022 squad.

Sandy MacIver, Lauren James, Jordan Nobbs, Katie Zelem and Ebony Salmon have all been called-up in their place.

England squad

Mary Earps, Sandy MacIver, Ellie Roebuck, Millie Bright, Lucy Bronze, Jess Carter, Rachel Daly, Alex Greenwood, Demi Stokes, Leah Williamson, Lotte Wubben-Moy, Jordan Nobbs, Georgia Stanway, Ella Toone, Keira Walsh, Katie Zelem, Bethany England, Lauren Hemp, Lauren James, Beth Mead, Nikita Parris, Alessia Russo, Ebony Salmon.

Ellen White has announced her retirement at the age of 33, finishing her career as England women's all-time leading goalscorer.

Manchester City forward White was in the first England women's team to lift a major trophy when she was part of the squad that won the Euro 2022 title at Wembley Stadium in July, beating Germany 2-1 in the final.

She came through the Arsenal academy before leaving to join Chelsea in 2005, where she spent three seasons before joining Leeds United.

During her time at Leeds, she scored on her England debut in a 3-0 win over Austria in March 2010.

White returned to Arsenal later in the year and stayed for three years, winning three league titles and two FA Cups in a successful spell.

She then spent time with Notts County and Birmingham City, before making the move to City. In February 2021, she became the all-time record goal scorer in the Women's Super League.

White became England's record scorer when she netted a hat-trick in a 20-thrashing of Latvia last year, and her shining moment came when she helped the Lionesses to European glory on home soil. She scored twice across six appearances in the tournament.

She scored 52 goals for her country, having won 113 caps.

In a statement on social media, White said: "This has been one of the hardest decisions of my life but one that I know is the right decision for me.

"And this is my time to say goodbye to football and watch the next generation shine. It has been my greatest honour and privilege to play this game.

"In particular playing for England has and always will be the greatest gift. My dreams came true on July 31, winning the Euros and becoming a European champion.

"Finally, let’s use the momentum from the Euro's win to make sure that every young person in all communities has the opportunity to play and feel connected to all England football teams."

Both Sarina Wiegman and Martina Voss-Tecklenburg have resisted temptation to tamper with their starting XIs as they have named unchanged teams for Sunday's Women's Euro 2022 final between England and Germany.

There had been speculation that Lionesses manager Wiegman would give in-form Alessia Russo a first start of the campaign, with the striker third in the scoring charts with four goals from the bench.

However, Wiegman has instead kept faith with Ellen White, who has scored just twice in five starts but is England's all-time top goalscorer.

England have named the same team from the start in all six of their matches at the finals, making them the first team in either a men's or women's European Championship to name an unchanged starting XI in every game from the group stages to the final.

Speaking to BBC Sport on the Wembley pitch ahead of the game, White said: "I can't really describe it. This noise is insane. It's so special. I'm going to soak in every moment.

"I've said so many times how special this group is. We can't wait for this game and to hopefully make this nation as proud as possible."

Germany coached Voss-Tecklenburg has also named the same team again, keeping faith with the side who beat France 2-1 in the semi-finals.

Beth Mead and Alexandra Popp will both be looking to find the net as they seek outright ownership of the Golden Boot, with six goals apiece heading into the final.

England defender Millie Bright highlighted her side's versatility after a gutsy 2-1 comeback win against Spain in extra time of their Women's European Championships quarter-final on Wednesday.

After a goalless first half, Spain snatched the lead in the 54th minute when Esther Gonzalez found space in the penalty area and finished low and hard across Mary Earps in the English goal.

With their tournament hanging in the balance, Ella Toone was subbed on with half an hour to play, and she proved to be the hero when she got on the end of Alessia Russo's squaring head to stab in the equalising volley from the edge of the six-yard box in the 84th minute.

Locked at 1-1, extra time was needed, and England made sure their fans would head home happy after Georgia Stanway found what would turn out to be the match-winner in the 96th minute, firing a rocket across the Spanish keeper into the top-left of the goal from well outside the penalty area.

Speaking to the media after the result, Bright talked about finding a different way to win, knowing it would be a very different contest than their recent drubbings of Northern Ireland (5-0) and Norway (8-0).

"It's all part of the game, and you're gonna come up against different challenges," she said. "Again, we knew that they were going to have a lot of the ball. 

"We were gonna have to find that different way of winning, and having been in games where, like I said, we scored a lot of goals. But it's about being clinical when you get those chances. I thought the players that were on and the players that came on did that excellently.

"I think, obviously, we were dealing with not having the ball a lot, and having to stay really tight defensively. Then knowing when we got the ball, it's how we use it, and how we can punish them and work towards their weaknesses.

"But yeah, it was just a matter of trying to rush a little bit without kind of turning it over and making mistakes, and obviously, we knew we had that pressure. 

"I think everyone is aware of the clock in the game and the score line. But yeah, I think for us, we stuck together as a team, knew what we needed to do, and executed it."

Bright also touched on the atmosphere inside Amex Stadium, saying they feel the pressure, but are "loving every minute".

"[It was] probably one of the biggest [nights of my career] to be honest," she said. "Just with it being our home Euros and, you know, having all the fans there and the atmosphere is incredible. 

"Everyone keeps talking about the pressure that's on us, but we embrace every moment, we're embracing the fans.

"There's always pressure in football at the highest level, so we've all dealt with that in the past, and yeah, we're just loving every minute."

Georgia Stanway powered home a stunning extra-time strike to send England into the Euro 2022 semi-finals with a 2-1 victory over Spain in Brighton on Wednesday. 

The Lionesses had not lost in 17 games under coach Sarina Wiegman but fell behind to Esther Gonzalez's second-half finish before substitute Ella Toone equalised with six minutes to go. 

Stanway smashed in the decisive goal in the 96th minute and England will next face either Sweden or Belgium, who meet in Leigh on Friday, after making the last four at a major tournament for the fourth successive time. 

Ellen White thought she had opened the scoring in a cagey first half but was denied by the offside flag, before Gonzalez finished into the bottom-left corner after Athenea del Castillo's cutback in the 54th minute. 

Mary Earps kept England in the game with a smart save from Del Castillo's deflected cross and the Lionesses capitalised as Toone volleyed home from Alessia Russo's cushioned header to send the match to extra time. 

Stanway then delivered the decisive moment, receiving the ball from Keira Walsh before driving forward and arrowing into the top-left corner to keep England's Euro 2022 hopes alive. 

England women's coach Sarina Wiegman insists Ellen White deserves the same recognition as Wayne Rooney as the Lionesses' forward closes in on the national scoring record.

White was twice on target as England hammered Norway 8-0 as Wiegman's side recorded the biggest win in men's or women's European Championship history.

England also became the first team in any Euros to net eight goals as they sealed top spot and a place in the knockout stages.

While it was a successful outing in Brighton on a team level, White also moved just one strike behind Rooney's record 53 goals for England.

White was quick to insist that Rooney's benchmark is not her priority after the game, before online trolls posted unnecessary questions surrounding the validity of her record in the women's game.

Wiegman jumped to the defence of her star striker on Thursday as she spoke ahead of the group-stage clash with Northern Ireland, insisting talented ability is the same in the men's and women's game.

"I just talk to my squad and to Ellen. Everyone can have their opinion, but I think what she's done is amazing, really good," Wiegman told reporters.

"The player and person she is in our team – such an important role. What she has accomplished on the pitch and also off the pitch is really, really great, and she's so valuable for this team. So maybe I would say that to those people.

"It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman – if you're great, you're great.

"For her to have achieved that, and the success she's had over such a long time, that tells you everything you need to know.

"She's been fantastic for England for a very long time, so of course it's great to have her on my team."

White will hope to at least equal Rooney's record against Northern Ireland, who have lost all eight of their previous meetings with the Lionesses, scoring just two goals to England's 44 in the process.

England star forwards Beth Mead and Ellen White will be rivals on the opening weekend of the Women's Super League season after Arsenal were handed a testing trip to Manchester City.

Mead hit a hat-trick and White scored twice as England thrashed Norway 8-0 in their second Euro 2022 group match on Monday evening. However, eyes are already turning towards another WSL campaign, which begins on the weekend of September 10-11, as Arsenal and City look to dethrone three-peat champions Chelsea.

As well as Mead, Arsenal have England captain Leah Williamson and Netherlands striker Vivianne Miedema among their rich player pool, while White is joined in City's ranks by the likes of England winger Lauren Hemp, former Lionesses skipper Steph Houghton and Jamaica striker Khadija Shaw.

Arsenal finished second in the table last year, a point behind Chelsea, with City third. Chelsea begin their quest for a fourth consecutive title when they host West Ham, while Manchester United travel to Tottenham, Everton host Leicester City, Brighton and Hove Albion welcome Aston Villa, and promoted Liverpool journey to Reading.

The penultimate round on the weekend of May 20-21 could be pivotal in determining the destiny of the title as Chelsea tackle Arsenal and City make the short trip to United for the Manchester derby.

Arsenal finish at home to Aston Villa a week later, City host Everton and Chelsea travel to Reading. Liverpool and Manchester United also go head-to-head on the final weekend.

Kelly Simmons, the Football Association's director of the women's professional game, said: "We really want to capture the momentum generated from the Women's Euros this summer, which will significantly help us take this league to the next level."

If some felt England had been underwhelming in their opening game win against Austria, it would be fair to say that in their second clash, the Lionesses roared.

Their 8-0 demolition of Norway at the Amex Stadium on Monday did more than just extend the longest unbeaten run in their history. It made a statement that England are ready to challenge for the Women's Euros on their own turf.

When they went seven ahead, England became the first team in European Championship history – women or men – to score so many in a single game.

Sarina Wiegman has made an immediate impact with the Lionesses since taking charge in September, with the Dutch coach having now won 14 and drawn two of her first 16 outings, scoring a remarkable 93 goals while conceding only three.

There had been some big wins already in the tournament that seemed ominous for the rest, with Spain and Germany hitting four in their opening matches while France became the first team to ever score five goals in the first half of a game at the Women's Euros when they trounced Italy 5-1 on Sunday.

England beat that record a day later, with a ruthless display seeing them lead 6-0 at the break.

An early penalty from Georgia Stanway after Ellen White had been felled got them going, and from there it seemed like every attack ended up in the Norway net.

Lauren Hemp made it two from close range despite being initially judged offside, before a brace each from Beth Mead and White gave the crowd in Brighton quite a first half to witness.

This was the first Women's Euros encounter between England and Norway, and it was one Gresshoppene boss Martin Sjogren will want to forget in a hurry.

The visitors stemmed the flow of goals in the second half, although their opponents seemed to use the opportunity to rest their legs.

Wiegman did just that as she took off White, Rachel Daly and the impressive Fran Kirby, who registered two assists, before the hour.

England had another on 65 minutes, though, as Alessia Russo, who replaced White, headed home a Lucy Bronze cross.

Mead completed her hat-trick with nine minutes remaining, tapping home after Guro Pettersen had spilled a Kiera Walsh strike from just outside the box.

Mead, who netted the only goal of the game against Austria, has now been directly involved in 29 goals for England under Wiegman (18 goals, 11 assists), with Hemp nine behind after her goal and assist took her to 20 involvements (eight goals, 12 assists).

The crowd of 28,847 were in their element, with no hostility, no jibes, just support for their team, and the familiar tune of 'Three Lions' having more than one vociferous airing.

It would be too simple to put this down to an energised showing because they were in front of their own fans, though. England played some outstanding football and earned their goal bonanza.

They look like a completely different side under Wiegman and dismantled a team only three places below them in the FIFA rankings, having 25 shots in all, hitting the target with an impressive 15.

Norway, ranked 11th in the world, looked like a deer caught in the headlights at times, but the pace and accuracy of the passing and movement was on point from their tormentors throughout.

The Lionesses are through to the quarter-finals already as group winners and can afford to rest plenty in their final Group A game against Northern Ireland before returning to Brighton on July 20 for the last-eight clash, likely to be against Germany or Spain.

England went into the tournament as one of the favourites, despite not having won it before. Their improvement under Wiegman coupled with home advantage means they are fancied by many.

Of course, we have been here before with England. Flattering to deceive, raising hopes only to have them extinguished. We all know that England expects, often in vain.

It is too early to say this feels different, but ripping apart a relatively strong opponent in such fashion has to impress even the most stubborn doubter.

Their fans certainly believe, anyway.

England's Ellen White insists she is relishing the pressure of leading the line at the Women's Euro 2022, but she knows she must improve her goalscoring form to keep her place in Sarina Wiegman's team.

White is England's all-time leading goalscorer, netting 50 times in 108 international appearances since her 2010 debut.

She finished as the joint-top goalscorer as England reached the 2019 Women's World Cup final, matching United States duo Megan Rapinoe and Alex Morgan with six strikes and taking the Bronze Boot, but has struggled on the domestic front recently.

White only netted four goals in 22 WSL appearances for third-placed Manchester City in the 2021-22 season and spurned several decent openings in England's 1-0 win over Austria on Wednesday.

She registered four shots totalling 0.49 expected goals in the Lionesses' Old Trafford opener, both match-high figures, but failed to find the net.

Yet White was bullish when asked whether her lack of goals was affecting her, telling a media conference: "No, I'm excited to be part of this England team.

"We've got some great talent, competition, and I'm loving every minute of playing for this team.

"Ultimately, my job is to score goals, of course. We've got some great wingers in this team and midfielders, backline, everyone. 

"I've got to be in the right place at the right time and hopefully, all the training I've done, [I] will help the team any way I can.

"I think there's always pressure to keep that number nine role. We've got some phenomenal talent, and it's super competitive, and I think that's really healthy, throughout the whole squad really.

"I think that's an amazing part of this team. We have 23 players that are so talented, and every single day in training it's super competitive and pushing each other and wanting each other to do well. I think it's a good headache for Sarina.

"She's super supportive and really helped with movement in and around the box, and the vision – she's been amazing on that front."

England take on Norway at Brighton and Hove Albion's AMEX Stadium on Monday and could clinch a spot in the knockout stages with a win, depending on the result of Northern Ireland's clash with Austria.

Meanwhile, White also offered her take on the team's request to Nike to change the colour of their white shorts due to concerns over players' periods, highlighting the importance of such conversations taking place in public.

"I think it's a really great conversation to have," she said. "We play football, we are on our periods, and definitely there has been feedback with Nike about the kit. 

"Our kit is lovely, but at times, when you are on your period, you do worry a little bit about that.

"It's important we are talking about it and made aware of what we can do to help support women when they are on their periods. It's a great conversation and one we need to continue to have really."

Ellen White became England women's all-time top scorer as she netted a hat-trick in a record-breaking 20-0 demolition of Latvia in World Cup qualifying.

The Manchester City forward, making her 101st appearance for her country, equalled Kelly Smith's record of 106 goals for England after just six minutes at the Keepmoat Stadium.

White, who achieved the mark in 16 games fewer than Smith, surpassed the milestone just three minutes later before adding her third – one of four hat-tricks scored by England on Tuesday – after the interval.

The 32-year-old now has 48 goals for the Lionesses, averaging almost a goal per game, following England's record competitive win. Their 13-0 thrashing of Hungary in October 2005 was the previous biggest margin of victory.

In total England, who had hit double figures 10 times previously since the team started in 1972, had 10 different goalscorers and over their two group matches against Latvia have attempted 121 shots while facing none in return, according to Opta data.

England remain top of their World Cup qualifying group, with a perfect six wins from six games, in which they have managed 53 goals and conceded none in reply.

White is also the second-highest scorer in Women's Super League history, netting 58 times in 126 appearances for Arsenal, Notts County, Birmingham and Manchester City.

Ellen White rescued Manchester City in a fierce derby as the England striker hit a landmark goal to secure a 2-2 draw with Manchester United.

Staring at a fourth successive defeat in the Women's Super League, City trailed and were down to 10 players after Georgia Stanway's red card.

But White was on hand to slot in her first goal of the season after 79 minutes, when Jess Park's thumping strike was pushed against the crossbar by Mary Earps.

The tap-in means White has now scored against all 17 clubs she has faced in the WSL, netting against more different sides in the league than any other player.

She has previously played for Arsenal, Notts County and Birmingham in the competition, which began in 2011.

This season's WSL title is already probably beyond City, the 2016 champions, and they entered Saturday's derby six points behind United after just four matches of the 22-game campaign. Injuries to the likes of FIFA Best Women's Player winner Lucy Bronze and Steph Houghton have left their ranks depleted, and both were absent again.

Stanway was dismissed after 35 minutes when her dangerously high boot caught Leah Galton high on the thigh in midfield, but City snatched the lead three minutes later when Khadija Shaw headed in a cross from the left by Demi Stokes.

City's run of three defeats was their worst in the WSL, and a fourth was on the cards when Lucy Staniforth's backheeled flick for a 72nd-minute equaliser was followed by Alessia Russo firing hosts United ahead.

At that stage, United were on course for their first win over City in the WSL, having previously managed just one point from three games.

The tussle at Leigh Sports Village had another twist in store though, and White, who had replaced Shaw just before the hour mark, showed her poacher's instinct to tuck away the loose ball after Earps saved from Park.

 

City star Lauren Hemp told the BBC: "The fight and determination throughout the whole game was top drawer. I'm so proud of how we've turned it around this week. It just shows how together the team is and hopefully this will be the turning point.

"We showed the quality this team has and that we deserved to put on a show. That's what you want in Manchester derbies, and we did it justice. I'm so proud of the team."

City boss Gareth Taylor wanted a win but said: "It was a roller coaster and when you're potentially staring at a loss at 2-1 down, I think you have to say reluctantly it's a fair point."

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